Alison Dean: (00:09)
TheoremOne is the leading innovation and engineering firm for the Fortune 1000. We design, build, and deliver enterprise-scale technology solutions and are very excited to present The Breakthrough podcast, an ongoing series, where we interview technology leaders to share their experiences and perspectives on what's next in tech.
Alison Dean: (00:36)
Welcome to The Breakthrough. I'm Alison Dean VP of Operations at TheoremOne. Today we are talking with Kristi Mansfield, currently co-founder and CEO of Seer Data and Analytics, a civic tech company turning data into action for people creating a better world. Love that. Previously, she was the Director of CX strategy and Transformation APAC at Oracle. Kristi is a published author and in 2015 was named one of Australia's 100 Women of Influence by the Australian Financial Review. Kristi sent me this quote from Margaret Mead, "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world." Hi, Kristi.
Kristi Mansfield: (01:16)
Alison Dean: (01:17)
Tell us what that quote means to you.
Kristi Mansfield: (01:19)
I love that quote because I think if we think about history, if we think about all through creating change in our society for the better, it has always come about. Oftentimes at the kitchen table over a cup of tea or a cup of coffee, where people are talking about, all right, we need to improve something. Let's go ahead and improve it. Whatever part of the society that might mean and might look like. That's how movements are born and that's how change happens. When people come together and decide that collectively we need to push forward and create a better world. And certainly, it's very needed now to ensure that we all understand that we are empowered when we come together and work together to achieve change, and that action is really part of the solution here.
Alison Dean: (02:10)
I agree with you. I want you to tell us what led you to become co-founder for Seer.
Kristi Mansfield: (02:16)
I've been in tech for a long time. Most of my career, I worked for a startup spun out of MIT. I was based up in Asia working for a speech recognition technology company, opening up all the new markets for speech tech many years ago. I had a moment when I was in Hong Kong one day, where I decided that I wanted to use my skills to make the biggest possible impact on the planet. So rather than do an MBA, I decided instead I would do a master's in philanthropy and social investment.
Kristi Mansfield: (02:43)
That took me on this fabulous journey. I call it my 10-year sabbatical doing philanthropic work. When I was doing that work, working on the ground in Southwestern Sydney, which is really one of the areas where there are fabulous communities, wonderful vibrancy, but also in some cases, entrenched poverty. I could see that it was very important for people who were working at the grassroots to have access to data. I needed it myself to get investment in where it was needed most.
Kristi Mansfield: (03:15)
Yet, in order for me to do that, I still had to outsource that to a researcher in an institution and wait for six months to receive a report back on where the greatest needs were. Actually, the reality is in today's world we can solve this with technology and that's what we are trying to do. Make sure that people who are working on the ground, who don't typically have analyst skill sets or don't know how to do data prep, or maybe don't know how to pull together open data that exists in the community to make better decisions from that, we are solving that problem. And when we think about it, we think about solving the data last mile.
Alison Dean: (03:55)
What does a typical day for you look like?
Kristi Mansfield: (03:58)
Through the pandemic, a typical day has looked like, I'm sure it has for many folks, back-to-back video calls, which is quite draining, but a wonderful opportunity to connect with so many people around the world. It's become evident that we don't actually need to get on a plane and have a face-to-face meeting anymore, which is one plus. However, now this cadence of video calls is also, you're going to need to find a new balance on that. However, I'll be meeting with my team. We'll be mostly talking about how we can improve features for our customers and our product roadmap. But also I'm talking a lot to public policymakers, politicians, those responsible for creating data strategies and data collaboration in our country and around the world, in Australia and all over the world, as well as talking to our customers, which I love. People who are working on the ground, who are those pioneers making change, using data as a tool for how they think about and how they collaborate for a better outcome for all.
Alison Dean: (05:00)
Who are the primary customers for Seer right now?
Kristi Mansfield: (05:04)
It's very diverse. It is those people, those change-makers, who are working in local communities and driving a strategic change. They might be sitting within not for profits, but also in local municipalities. In Australia, we call them local councils. They're also in public policy roles. They could be in government departments or agencies. And they're also philanthropists. If you can imagine the ecosystem of people who collaborate to create strategic change in local communities, then they're our users and our customers.
Alison Dean: (05:42)
Okay, cool. Jo Gaines, who's AVP for Salesforce Digital 360, she was recently on the podcast, and she has this question for you. What was that first experience or moment when you decided that tech was the right career path for you?
Kristi Mansfield: (05:58)
For me, it was when I was 26. I was invited to join a startup, as I mentioned, that spun out of MIT, that was trying to commercialize this imaginative technology, speech recognition technology. I could see this can really change the world. At that time, a little while back now, we were imagining what it would be like to have a speech to human interaction, to be able to control devices and phones and machines with our voice. Now, we were a long way off from the commercialization of that, but now today it's ubiquitous. It's everywhere. We take it for granted. For me, it was really about the interaction between humans and machines and how this can transform our world. I think it's a fascinating space to be in.
Alison Dean: (06:49)
Oh, yeah, I agree with you. I want to know why data is the key to systems change and societal reform?
Kristi Mansfield: (06:57)
Data is a fabulous tool for understanding the model of the world that you might have, for making a prediction, and then taking an action. We see that in the commercial sector today and large governments. So, of course, so many decisions and large corporates and governments having easier access to vast data sets for decision making and predictions that improve, for example, a number of different outcomes for businesses like consumer behavior, predicting product development, whole range of areas. It's powerful because, of course, we are in the data age where machine learning and AI is really transforming how we are going to interact in the world and what markets look like and how we move forward as a species in terms of progress. There are a lot of risks around that as we know, and a lot of concerns as well.
Kristi Mansfield: (07:58)
For societal reform, when we started working in this space, it was a number of years ago, it was very early in terms of, well, how can we use these tools and technologies to help people who are creating better outcomes in their communities or in society? How can we use these tools and methodologies to help people make better decisions and take better action?
Kristi Mansfield: (08:21)
That's why it's important. Because when data is presented, especially in collaboration, it does a couple of different things. It helps people have better conversations. It helps to shift the power base between potentially the funding community and those that are doing the work. It also helps with decisions that ultimately ensure more efficiency in the outcomes that are delivered. So what we are seeing is, in this purpose sector or in the social sector, rather than having to wait a number of years for an evaluation to determine whether or not a particular initiative is working, now data allows people to identify how we need to make changes on a daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly basis to ultimately get better outcomes.
Alison Dean: (09:13)
Love that. What does digital transformation mean to you?
Kristi Mansfield: (09:16)
Digital transformation is, in its simplest form, taking what is in the analog and creating it in the digital. It's really about digitizing processes and connectivity in the social sector or in the public policy arena. There's so much to be done in this space. There is really a huge amount of work that can be done and enabled to ensure not just citizen or customer experience improvements, but also improvements, as I mentioned, on how decisions are made and how ultimately the system moves from siloed government agency or siloed approaches into holistic approaches, which will indeed and are already getting us better outcomes more broadly.
Kristi Mansfield: (10:07)
Really, I think we've moved from a place where it seemed to be a very challenging thing into how are we going to do it and how do we do it faster. When it comes to data, we've moved away from we have to share data, we're not allowed, we're unwilling, we can't share data for this improvement process on the digital transformation piece, into, we can see the real value, our citizens will require it and demand it, and now it's a matter of cracking and open and making it go faster.
Alison Dean: (10:38)
Totally. Is there a project that comes to mind for you that's most representative of a digital transformation?
Kristi Mansfield: (10:45)
In the social sector, I think there are lots of exciting pieces of work happening, of course, all over the world. I think some of the most interesting digital transformation projects in the NGO and not-for-profit space are really around emergency relief and crisis recovery. Of course, being able to gather data together across multiple different agencies. In Australia, there's a large project underway by the Red Cross, who is the emergency response non-government agency globally with multiple different universities and local communities as well as government to determine: well, when we are responding to natural disasters and in crisis, what is all the information that we need? How will citizens get access to that and be able to respond quickly so that we have information to take the best action and to ultimately save lives?
Kristi Mansfield: (11:41)
This became really evident in the bush fires that the East Coast of Australia, many, many communities across the East Coast of Australia, and sadly in many places in North America and the U.S.A. where raging bushfires really put families at risk. Remember stories of families who needed to make immediate decisions about: Do I turn left or right? Do I leave the house? Do I go or not? Purely by instinct or luck, people were surviving as they saw their homes exploding or fires raging. The incredible work of enabling local people with digital tools to help them make those decisions in the moment, in that crisis, I think, is a very good example of the power of digital transformation.
Alison Dean: (12:35)
Love that. What comes to mind for you as the most memorable project that you've been part of?
Kristi Mansfield: (12:42)
I think the work that we are doing right now, creating data collaboratives at the grassroots is without question the most exciting work I've done in my entire career because I can see how transformational it is for society. If you can imagine ecosystems of data sharing, a very local level, where that data is available to people for decision making, whether it's, as I mentioned earlier, emergency response or crisis recovery, but generally in decisions across education or housing or homelessness, jobs and the economy, well-being and health. All of those kinds of decisions that will help us achieve what we can envisage as driving communities in the future. When we bring all of that together in a holistic way, people who are working in those domains, but also collaboratively, find new solutions that matter to their own community that's genuinely led by the community with the community's voice involved and that data is sovereign to that community, then we are really empowered as citizens and as people to drive forward a future that we want to see. I completely see this future and we are doing this in more than 30 communities in Australia right now.
Alison Dean: (14:04)
So cool. Is there a project that comes to mind where you would put, like, this was the most difficult? Does any project warrant that title?
Kristi Mansfield: (14:11)
They're always difficult because we are coming up to blockers when we talk about data sharing. It's remarkable where data sits. Of course, in many different government agencies, it's hidden away. There are lots of blockers to accessing that information, which for many good reasons as well is important. Privacy reasons. It's related to people's citizenship and how they engage in the world, and et cetera, et cetera. It's important data. But now, of course, we have ways to ensure that information is kept private. And when we are working with aggregate data that is available, we can still learn so much about what we need to know. The challenges are still encouraging the flow of that data, the unlocking of that data, in order for people to make decisions. Because otherwise, they're working almost with a blunt instrument.
Kristi Mansfield: (15:05)
one of the examples that I think about a lot and we worked with, the Bourke community, which is a very small town in the Northwest of New South Wales in Australia. Almost on the edge of the Outback, it's around eight hours drive from any regional town in Central New South Wales. This wonderful town in Bourke, which is on a fabulous river called the Darling River in Western New South Wales, received some terrible and very challenging media, which stated that it was the most dangerous town in the OEDC. And so, the local community decided to work together to really change that narrative. That was 10 years ago.
Kristi Mansfield: (15:49)
In the last seven to eight years, it's the first place in Australia where we've tried justice reinvestment, which is early intervention and programming to keep kids and people out of the criminal justice system. That work, we are pairing with a data-sharing capability at that grassroots. But it's been very challenging to get to that place because the leaders in that community really needed to break open getting access to that data and to doing that work. It's incredible work that it is being done there. They've saved millions of dollars in criminal justice savings and not to mention keeping young people out of the justice system through early intervention work. Really, early intervention and holistic approaches to social problems that we have in our communities are much of the answer.
Alison Dean: (16:41)
You kind of segued me in part of that answer, but how does Seer ensure that the data you're capturing isn't being manipulated negatively by the wrong sources?
Kristi Mansfield: (16:55)
I mean, data is always being used as a weapon, especially in the public policy arena. You even see it today with actors. one of the most challenging and sinister examples of this is misinformation. Data is always a tool, traditionally has been used as a weapon. In terms of how we manage this, we have clear guidelines that we are not bringing into our platform for the analysis of any personally identifiable data. I mean, that's fundamental. We apply techniques to ensure that we are suppressing information so that the accounts are such that we can't identify other people.
Kristi Mansfield: (17:38)
We are also not bringing in digital data to our platform. Our platform is open data. It's data that exists within government agencies or within program delivery around how programs are being delivered on the ground. But at this stage, we're not bringing in or we don't have access to digital data. It is what we call little data and very, very helpful for decision making and for tracking impact. For example, the outcomes that we are trying to achieve such as healthier families, keeping kids out of the criminal justice system, diversions, reducing family violence instances, improving jobs, educational outcomes, these kinds of outcomes can be measured through indicators and the data that aligns to those indicators. So we are really facilitating the data that aligns to indicative outcomes in aggregate form. That's very fundamental to our efforts in so far as protecting privacy and protecting information.
Kristi Mansfield: (18:40)
When it comes to storytelling, what our focus is, is to enable people who are working communities always in collaboration to tell the stories they want to tell. I think this is being historically one of the issues where there can be a very negative narrative from data. So then, what data are we collecting or surfacing or making visible that identifies the strengths in a particular place and builds on those strengths so that we can invest either time, resources, people, emotional investment in the strengths of a community, not the deficit. That's a really important shift in the storytelling of using data.
Alison Dean: (19:24)
Can you talk about what you're doing with maintaining indigenous data sovereignty for First Nations people as well as digital sovereignty for the rest of the world?
Kristi Mansfield: (19:35)
Sure. Digital data sovereignty is not a new concept, but how to operationalize it in the digital world is emerging. There's been a lot of work done by many leaders across the world, First Nations leaders, on: What is indigenous or First Nation status sovereignty? How do we maintain it? What do we need to think about when operationalizing it? The important thing to note here is it means something different for many different First Nations communities and that's very critical and important to remember. It's not one size fits all.
Kristi Mansfield: (20:13)
I guess how we see it and what we understand through the work we do with many First Nations communities, including the Bourke tribal council and Maranguka Project in Bourke that I spoke about earlier is that First Nations data is a cultural, strategic, and economic asset. And it's interesting to think about sovereignty and data. It's not just data that is how we think about it in the Western model, which is data that can be counted or qualitative data. It's also knowledge and stories.
Kristi Mansfield: (20:47)
Indigenous data sovereignty includes the concepts of ownership of data and information and story, control of that, including the narrative, custodianship, accessibility, accountability to First Nations people, making sure the voice of the community is amplified and that's controlled through this. Then, other core principles around data collection, how it's collected, accessibility and sharing protocols, which all ultimately roll up into this important motion of self-determination.
Kristi Mansfield: (21:22)
It's a very complex area and it is emerging. However, what's exciting about it is that there's a grassroots movement in Australia as well. I'm sure this is happening in North America and Canada as well, where there are networks of data literacy and data sharing so that First Nations people can understand what is data, what does it mean, and how do we talk about it in this context. Because some of the languages is quite difficult as well.
Kristi Mansfield: (21:51)
Essentially we are working to operationalize that, hand the data literacy and the ownership and data in the hands of First Nations people so that they can control the decisions that are right for them in their communities. Now, what that means for all of us is data sovereignty parts a way for citizen-driven decision making and data being a core part of that sovereignty, or even that right around our ability to harness the information, the knowledge that we have, own that, control that, and then drive an outcome that's ultimately going to be led by communities.
Alison Dean: (22:30)
I want to know what Seer's involvement is with sustainable development goals in Australia and beyond?
Kristi Mansfield: (22:36)
Sustainable development goals are terrific markers for how we need to move into sustainability globally. What we did is we pulled together the data that the Australian government is using, so that local not-for-profits or grassroots organizations could see visually where the gaps were and how they could contribute with their programming or with their missions into aligning with the sustainable development goals. From there, that enables the not-for-profit organizations or indeed corporates who are then funding not-for-profits to do this kind of work, to track against their impact on those goals. And so, simply an ability to visualize the opportunities or the needs from the community's perspective or from the not-for-profits' perspective on how they could contribute to the goal and then track against the impact that they're making on that goal.
Alison Dean: (23:33)
All right, I want to shift to leadership. The first thing I want to ask is what are the biggest lessons that you've learned from being a leader in technology?
Kristi Mansfield: (23:42)
Technology is such an exciting space for learning new models. There's no question that technology is only ever about the people. How people work together as a team, how they collaborate, and how they make decisions across different parts of the business, across silos, and then certainly how they measure those decisions to make better ones and faster ones in the future.
Kristi Mansfield: (24:12)
In our business, and what I've learned is, it's extremely important in tech to understand the flat non-hierarchical approach to leadership, empowering people to collaborate and supporting models for collaboration, and decision making that is fast and effective through a collaborative effort.
Kristi Mansfield: (24:36)
Now, in order to do that, my approach and what I've found has worked for me, is to be in service to my team and to ensure that people know very clearly the decisions that they are fully empowered to make and supported to make, and that they're cross-functional decisions. Certainly, this is really important for innovation as well because as these decisions are being made and people are coming together to put ideas forward, only the best ones get through if it's cross-functional. Also too, when you're working in this arena where we are, where we are working in, building ecosystems, connecting in with collaborations, we as an organization need to know how to collaborate. And so, as an organizational structure, we are mimicking, I suppose, what we see as needed in the sector that we are serving. Then, as a leader, making sure people are very clear on the decisions that they should make and can make, how they collaborate, and being in service to coach them to be more empowered.
Alison Dean: (25:45)
That's great. What do you want your direct reports to remember you for?
Kristi Mansfield: (25:49)
I hope they remember me for having a strong vision and for believing in them.
Alison Dean: (25:55)
It's beautiful. Well said. What are the most important lessons that you've learned from your mentors?
Kristi Mansfield: (26:00)
That's one of the brilliant things about the tech space as well, isn't it? I mean, you get to work with so many incredible minds and people who are just quite frankly so much better than you, including the team and our clients and policymakers that we get to work with and technologists, et cetera. There's always someone smarter than you. There's always more to learn. So, it's very humbling. I think these are things that I've learned as I've become more mature. There's always so much more. There's always the opportunity to work with people who are much cleverer than you. And it's about empowering those people and encouraging them to come on this journey with you so they can do their best work.
Alison Dean: (26:42)
What projects are especially interesting to you as you continue on in your career?
Kristi Mansfield: (26:48)
The sorts of things that I'm excited about. I mean, I've talked a lot about data and data collaboration, of course, this is what I love. I'm really excited about how the not-for-profit sector is going to start to build and create new data products. Do things that we didn't know were going to be able to be possible before and commercialize some of those kinds of things as well.
Kristi Mansfield: (27:12)
But I think there's going to be a little bit of a period between when that happens and when we see that moving because of the skills gap that is being filled at the moment in the sector itself. It's a very large sector. I mean, in Australia, it's hundreds of billions of dollars that's invested in the social sector or the public policy arena and sector.
Kristi Mansfield: (27:35)
Yet, it's very hard to find data science and data skill sets and engineering for that sector because this is one of the hottest skill sets in the world, and lots of banks and fintech and supply chain companies and Medtech, they're all slowing up these amazing data scientists and engineers. I think we've got to find ways of getting more people into STEM, especially diverse communities, women, and men. I think these are the areas that really excite me. How do we encourage that pipeline of talent and break open traditional ways of engaging in STEM so that so many people can get involved in this effort?
Alison Dean: (28:18)
Right. I agree with that. What future innovations are you excited about? That could be personally or professionally.
Kristi Mansfield: (28:26)
I try to imagine what 2030 could look like and I just don't know what's going to evolve in terms of connectivity, how the data that we are accessing, and the whole revolution of the internet of things is going to help us define what the future really looks like. I mean, now we're talking about the ability for computers and AI to discover or to process, or to make sense of concepts in the world that we've never been able to do previously because of the speed of algorithms or the computing power of how we’ve been able to consume and manage all of that data. I'm really excited about what the future might look like in terms of the capacity for machine learning and AI. However, on the other side, I'm concerned about that too, because we don't really know how we can control it. It's going to oftentimes come back to what are those great known and unknowns and how do we help to unpack and manage that process moving forward.
Alison Dean: (29:34)
What innovations are driving positive community transformation in your opinion?
Kristi Mansfield: (29:39)
Well, I think it's simple but complex. That is, the complexity of it is that in order to drive real community transformation, it requires collaboration and a holistic approach between many different actors, whether it's government or business or the NFP sector. It does require a shift in power so that there's a seat at the table for decision-making for all of those different actors. That does mean the complexity is in being able to collaborate well and make decisions well.
Kristi Mansfield: (30:18)
But I think the exciting and the simple part of it is people asking better questions together. Very simple and better questions. Because a well-defined question will help us get to a better answer faster. That means that these diverse groups who are working together can focus on what that question could be, and therefore, what the solution could be. I think that's clear across many different domains and interests. Some of the greatest inventions of all time and the greatest discoveries have been through the simple question.
Alison Dean: (30:54)
How can interested people get involved with Seer?
Kristi Mansfield: (30:57)
Seer is a data platform that enables people to make decisions using open data and data sharing. The open data component and our tools are freely available. People can sign up for Seer and start using the platform using public data. It's only Australian public data at this stage, though. For North America, it's going to be a little tricky. But if you want to learn all about what's going on down under, jump in and sign up for free.
Kristi Mansfield: (31:25)
The other thing is, people with technical skill sets, with data and data science capabilities, should reach out and get involved in helping not-for-profits answer complex questions with data. Because there's a big capability gap and there's, of course, awesome organizations such as DataKind in North America. Down in Australia, there are a number of other networks of volunteers, technical people, who are helping build capacity and answer complex questions for the not-for-profit sector. So I think it's really important to do that.
Kristi Mansfield: (31:59)
Then, if you have domain expertise and you want to apply that to a social benefit, there are lots of opportunities to do that. If you look at some of the work that is coming out of New York University and GovLab, ConnectIn, there's so much happening where you can contribute your expertise in different domains to help solve social problems globally and locally with data or data collaboration.
Alison Dean: (32:24)
So Cool. Can you speak about a breakthrough that you've had recently?
Kristi Mansfield: (32:28)
Well, one of the most profound breakthroughs was getting out of lockdown. That is awesome as well for my Melbournian and Victorian colleagues. They will be coming out of lockdown imminently. To my understanding that city has been in lockdown longer than any other city in the world so that's been a terrific breakthrough. I think we've learned so much, haven't we, about the importance of community, social interaction, coming together, and also what work means for us. I've been reading a lot about this imminent great resignation of people who are kind of questioning: Is this really for me? Is this what I really want to be doing with my life? Is work as important as I thought it once was?
Kristi Mansfield: (33:21)
And I think one of the interesting breakthroughs leading a company is that through the pandemic, when I could see my team was exhausted and really needed some space and time, we implemented a four-day working week where everybody was still being paid, of course, their five day week, but they had a day off just to, we called it Duna Days, to come in under the blankets, sit on the sofa, or take up some sort of art or craft project or whatever it was, gardening.
Kristi Mansfield: (33:52)
My big breakthrough moment there was, you know what, productivity didn't decrease at all.
Alison Dean: (33:58)
Kristi Mansfield: (33:59)
The fabulous thing is I can see a pathway for many other businesses implementing permanently a four-day working week to really acknowledge that people need to have rich lives outside of work in order to perform at their very best. That, I think, is a breakthrough.
Alison Dean: (34:18)
Oh, yeah. I think that's phenomenal. Is there anything else that you want to leave us with?
Kristi Mansfield: (34:23)
Well, I'm really excited to be able to talk about our expansion into North America.
Alison Dean: (34:29)
Oh, tell me. I want to talk about that.
Kristi Mansfield: (34:32)
We are raising our next round of capital, which will enable us to expand our platform into North America and also Europe. What we've built is scalable so we can consume and ingest data really quickly in a more automated way. Then, we can make our tooling and our platform available in all communities. Early next year, we'll be closing that funding round. Then, looking for how we are going to come into North America.
Kristi Mansfield: (35:00)
Now, that is such a vast idea. As a founder from Australia, we look at the States and it's just so huge. Where would you start? And so, we don't think about coming into the United States per se. We think about coming in potentially and building partnerships in a state or a town or city, and then building from there to see whether what we're offering is valuable to municipalities and people working at the grassroots in data collaboration to enable better decisions.
Kristi Mansfield: (35:33)
New York City is doing this really well. The city is enabling and empowering the boroughs and people who are working in those boroughs and service providers and not-for-profits and policymakers in those areas with data as a problem-solving tool. I can see that that is going to be incredibly important all over the world. So we're looking forward to getting our feet on the ground in the States where we’re able to next year and seeing what we might be able to offer and who we can play with.
Alison Dean: (36:03)
That's exciting. We'll have to keep tabs on that, Kristi. I like it. I feel like, honestly, I could ask you a thousand more questions, but I know you're a very busy lady. Thank you for this, because I think you've seeded all of us with a lot of interesting context, not only around data but really how data can shape so many things when I think public interest really is in mind. I think that that's often not something that is focused on and you're our first guest that really is doing a lot in this space and I find it very motivating. So I appreciate you, Kristi.
Kristi Mansfield: (36:39)
Cool. And I appreciate you, too. Thank you so much for having me on. It's been fantastic.
Alison Dean: (36:43)
Thank you for tuning into The Breakthrough, brought to you by TheoremOne. Make sure to hit that subscribe button and leave us a comment. You can find us wherever you listen to podcasts. For more great content, follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Breakthrupod that's break T-H-R-U-P-O-D. I'm your host Alison Dean. Until next week.